Submitted by Harry Hipps II
Every day governments at every level make and change laws and statutes -- conditions change, ideas change, and/or circumstances change. God blessed America with the wisdom of the extraordinary men that created this exceptional country. Our Founding Fathers set us up with a constitutional framework dedicated to freedom from tyranny. Once we start to ignore our principles and ramrod things through by treating one person one way and someone else differently, then we are on the path to chaos.
Once this happens, we will see oppression of weaker, less powerful citizens by the richer, more connected ones; we will have mob rule; or both. We are seeing this happen almost routinely by the federal government and I fear we may be seeing this happen locally.
The City of Hickory certainly has the right to amend ordinances. If a moratorium on bars and nightclubs allows the city government and staff time to study any proposed changes to the code, then this is not unreasonable. Personally I do not see why we need a moratorium. The issue could be studied without the moratorium and changes could be submitted for consideration at any time.
The problem in this whole issue is the way the permit, that has been submitted by prospective club operators at the former Ferguson’s Plumbing, has been handled. As attorney Larry Johnson has stated, the permit process was initiated well before the moratorium was passed.
The city council and staff embarrassed themselves by not following proper procedures for notices on public hearings. They seem unwilling to grant or deny the permit under the law that was in effect at that time. One irony is that the Ferguson's Plumbing property is a suspected Brownfield property. I suppose the City did not care to inform the owner that grant money is available to evaluate the property, as they claim they are interested in doing in Hickory.
The real issue is “due process.” Laws are to be executed as they exist. They may have been different in the past, they may be different in the future, but the law today is the law of the land. To not follow the laws, because the Mayor, Council, or anyone else sees a result they deem undesirable, is just not acceptable.
Laws are not perfect. But, given the choice between living under imperfect laws or living under the whims and impulses of people who don't think they have to obey the law, I would certainly choose the former.
I don’t go to bars and will never set foot in this proposed nightclub. But, if we don’t speak up when other’s rights are trampled on, who will speak up for us when our rights are trampled on? Furthermore, do we really want to spend taxpayer dollars defending the indefensible? Are we a nation of laws or of men?
- Harry Hipps II
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Thursday, September 18, 2008
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34 comments:
Correct you are jtshell.
We all must stand together against this elitist City Council and racist Police Department. Council Members Patton, and Fox both attend local Christian Chuches here in Hickory yet they appear to be very racist to me. They are elitist snobs. The police are paid to deal with all types of problems. They should concentrate on doing their jobs and enforcing the current laws. They should not be doing the bidding of a few racist council members. Sally Fox should have concentrated on keeping her own house and kids in order and not keeping the minorities in this town "in order" as she believes is her duty. Jill Patton is just a racist and I am ashamed to say that we attend the same Church.
What about The Tap Room uptown? The police are called to that establishment many times a year. They have fights and violence just like every bar does occasionally. However that is a "white" bar and the Hickory elite and their sons and daughters go there so it is tolerated. Hickory Alive, October Fest, Spring Fest all increase arrests for disorderly conduct, fighting, assault, larceny, B&E to Vehicles, public drunkeness, drug violations etc. However that is tolerated by the police and Hickory Council. The Hickory Jaycees even run the "Beer Garden." They sell the beer and the white elitists drink it and then drive off. Many are D.W.I. This is all tolerated and encouraged by our Council. Then along comes two law abiding citizens who are handing out religous information and The Jaycees complain to two Hickory Police Supervisors that the men are hurting the Jaycees beer sales. So the two Hickory Police Supervisors arrest the men and subsequently violate their civil rights. The charges are later dropped by the District Attorney. Jill Patton and Sally Fox go on record that they support the Police in these arrests. It is scary enough that two ignorant police officers (supervisors no less) can violate your civil rights but how can elected members of our city support police who are violating a citizens right to free speech?
People this is scary!
Since I found this blog I've been in agreement with most everything here until you touch on the police officers. Those men and women are, in my opinion, poorly underpaid with high expectations of perfectionism from the public. The pamphlet ordeal uptown has been blown way out of proportion, and quite a few people say they were approached in an overly aggressive manner and were unable to disengage from the evangelists in a polite manner. THEIR rights were being interfered with...rights they are just as entitled to. If I'm enjoying an evening on the square and do not wish to talk religion, there is a reasonable expectation on my part that I will be left in peace. This was not the case at the time. I engaged in a brief email exchange with one of the gentlemen arrested that evening - he was quite proudly arrogant in telling me how they'd managed entry into a closed country and then been 'persecuted' for passing out banned literature. It wasn't enough for them to get in - they had to push the envelope. Sometimes the envelope needs pushing...but in this case I think getting in and simply engaging that country's citizens in a Christian manner would have been the way to go.
The two officers involved do not deserve the 'ignorant' label. They had irritated citizens on one side and literature pushers on the other side who tried to hide behind religion. Religion and children should never be used in that manner to further a cause. The zealots wouldn't leave, they were causing the disturbance, so they needed to be removed. Sure, we all saw the phone clip....taken by the religious folks. Do you really think they didn't tone it down for that?
Officers have to make decisions on so many things...and they are human. They're out there to do the best they can to avert situations that sometimes others have planned in advance (the zealots had all kinds of paperwork, etc, to 'prove' they had a right to push their religion in other's faces)....but the officers have to deal with having had no prior preparation. They're willing to step in between you and someone with a gun just as fast as they'll step in between you and someone shoving literature...religious or otherwise...in your face. Give them the respect they deserve for a VERY tough job.
One thing a lot of people don't understand...when 'staff' makes recommendation to Council, the recommendations are made in a way to please Council. If an idea is good but "well, that's not really what Council wants to see or hear"...the idea is presented but the recommendation will either be no or worded in a way that suggests it's probably not something to pursue. If it's something Council would deem appropriate, the recommendation is yes. How does 'staff' glean Council's mindset? Each year at the Council/Staff retreat.
Yes,
I don't think we should Monday Morning Quarterback the situation with the Guys passing out the literature downtown. I think that both sides were in the wrong on that issue, but sometimes in the course of interpersonal relations involving religion that is going to happen.
I think the evangelists should have refrained, when they were approached by police. There is a time and a place for everything and you need to know when and where to pick your fights.
If they were innocent, as they say they were, then they should have pulled back and gone to the media about the wrongful treatment. When the police approached them, they should have been like, "Mea culpa, we're outta here."
I've never seen the video of how these guys were treated, but if they were arrested in anything other than a peaceful protest fashion (catch and release), then that is just wrong. But, I'm not going to tar and feather the police because as you said they were between a rock and a hard place.
I do think the city should have nipped this thing in the bud quickly. There are a lot bigger fish to fry than a couple guys passing out literature. It just sounds so embarrasingly stupid.
Chalk it up to a lesson learned. Establish rules of conduct. Give them a justifiably defined area to pass there literature out in and let's move on.
People on those evenings are given a defined space where they can drink beer and I think it would be fair to give the evangelists a defined area to evangelize.
Certainly the city should have nipped this in the bud quickly - but they first had to decide whether prosecute or not prosecute looked better. The phone clip that was taken showed the evangelists being cuffed and walked away - nothing harsh, no arm yanking, etc. The officers simply did their job. I think giving the evangelists their own area is a good idea...if I want to talk to them, I can go there. There was also a big to-do about how the Jaycees rent the space but it's still a public area. True...but there are plenty of rentable places that are still public...like a shelter at Hilton park. If I rent it for a birthday party, and someone comes in being disruptful, I would ask for their removal too. And you know, people are just less willing to listen when you become confrontational.
I like what you're doing here. The folks at the City need watching. There are some good people there who care about others...and there are plenty who get their job done but make sure they know how much vacation/sick time they have accumulated, when they'll get their longevity check, how much they have in retirement, and how they can keep Council happy until they retire.
People you need to educate yourself about the laws here in N.C. and also Constitutional Rights. I am very educated in this field.
The arrest of the two citizens on Union Square was an unlawful arrest and that is the reason it was dismissed by the District Attorney. You can not arrest a citizen because he is exercising his right to free speech. There is no crime in N.C. for "creating a disturbance." Martin Luther King created a disturbance and so have many more people including Jesus. These men created no more of a disturbance than the Girl Scouts do selling cookies or the Shriners do collecting money at intersections. Both are just as "disturbing" to me but I don't want or believe they should be arrested. Do you? I don't care if these men are handing out religous tracts or their brliefs on UFO'S.
They are guaranteed that right by the U.S. Constitution.
Just because the police have a hard job does not give them a free pass to make an unlawful arrest or twist the law to make it fit a particular scenario. A heart surgeon has a hard job but if he cost someone their life because of negligence there will be a costly and very expensive outcome. Both the District Attorney and the defense attorney representing these two men smell a lawsuit. The District Attorney is not going to dismiss a lawful arrest prior to trial or a plea bargain. There was no attempt at a plea bargain or a trial because there was no crime committed. No one stated that the "citizens on the square" were beaten by police but they were arrested for a crime which they did not commit. It is akin to you Mr Shell being arrested for Simple Possession of Marijuana. Later however it is determined that you actually had a baggie of parsley which you use in some of your recipes. Hence an unlawful arrest. You now have a criminal record for Possession of Marijuana. It stays on your record for life unless you pay an attorney to represent you in a hearing before a judge in order to attempt to have this arrest record expunged from your criminal history. That's a lot of stress and money expended by you because two cops made an unlawful arrest. Now there is a difference in conviction records and arrest records. Your record will show that you were arrested for a crime but not convicted. When a perspective employer checks your record and sees that you were arrested for a crime that you did not list on your application then you will not get that job or that volunteer position helping the church youth, or Big Brother volunteer. You did not list it because you thought that since the charges were dismissed you had no record. You go through life maybe never knowing why you did not get any of those jobs or why the Red Cross, your church or the YMCA would not choose you to be a volunteer. That is a complete injustice is it not? That is why it is so necessary to have well trained police officers who know the laws and enforce them without political pressure from bosses, politicians (city council), influential citizens and members of the Jaycees.
As in every job there are capable employees and there are those employees who are less capable and cause the company or the citizens in this case many problems. I'm sure that you have seen some great chefs and some chefs that need to find a new career.
These two supervisor officers should at least be suspended and probably terminated. They need a new career. Even a rookie police officer fresh from the police academy should know that you can not arrest a person for burning the American flag, flying the same upside down, wearing a shirt with "f*** the world" on it, or handing out religious tracts, baseball schedules, or pizza coupons in a public place like Union Square.
Nope these two cops violated these citizens' rights. The cops were wrong and they should be punished and the citizens compensated by the city and the police department.
One more thought to consider here. You have a daughter or son about to go to college and they join a protest of a war. They are legally handing out anti war tracts when some citizen gets offended and he calls the police. The same two cops from Union Square show up. The citizen insists they arrest your daughter. The cops arrest her. She calls you and she is terrified. Terrified of being locked up with real criminals. You rush down to see her crying in jail. You call an attorney he tells you that your daughter actually committed no crime and he helps you get your 18 year old daughter out of jail. She will never be the same. The District Attorney quickly dismisses the charges but the damage has been done. Now you think it is all over. Wait! Your daughter does not get accepted to five different colleges for which she applied. Why you ask. Six months later you find out why. Her criminal record checked by the colleges indicated she had been arrested for Disorderly Conduct. They all passed on her. So another six months later and $8,000 in legal fees you finally get her record expunged.
That is a very steep price to pay for exercising your Constitutional Right to free speech. I bet you don't feel so loving of the police officers now. You also find out that a City Council person had pressed for the arrest of your innocent daughter because his or her son was selling beer at the adjacent Jaycees tent and he had been in the military.
So you sue the City and they pay your legal fees now totaling $65,000 because suing the Government and the police is not cheap. You get an extra $5000 to cover your daughter's suffering. Personally I don't think it covers the damages to your daughter or your entire family. Do you?
Now the citizens have to pick up the entire $78,000 tab in a form of a tax hike. How many more times will this scenario play out over the period of let's say five years? All because of good ol' boy politics and untrained police officers.
I never thought of it to that degree. I have to say that you make a compelling case and I can't disagree with you on your summation.
I also wasn't there and I don't know what went down. All I was saying is that I don't think these people have the right to harrass the public based upon religion.
I don't know that that is what was happening. There are multiple sides to this issue. I agree with you 100% on the issue of freedom of speech.
I also believe that our local government should set up a predefined area in which these groups can pass out information. Wouldn't that be alright without litigation having to take place.
If a city festival cannot be held, in this public area, so that individuals can feel comfortable to attend; then maybe it needs to be moved to a private setting. That just doesn't seem right to me.
Amazing how this has gone from a discussion about a moratorium on new bars to a referendum on religious people handing out tracts on Union Square. For someone who is supposedly very educated in this field
you seem to be terribly misguided on a number of points.
FYI - There are rules re: the use of Union Square; they may be archaic and designed to make it difficult for anyone but a select few to use the square, but until they're changed they've been instituted. The City Council is in charge of them. They are the ones who can change them, and if you want to know what they are, go to the City's website. If you're unhappy with them, go to the Council Members and voice your opinion. I don't have a great deal of confidence that it'll do any good, but that's the solution here.
The Hickory Jaycee's essentially "rent" the square, the same way you rent a pavillion in the park or any other public space. During that time, it's yours to do with as you wish within the confines of those rules. If they didn't want people handing out literature of any type, and they asked them to leave and they declined to do so, it's reasonable for the police to arrest and remove them. The issue isn't WHAT they were handing out; it's that they didn't have the proper permission to hand out anything, be it religious tracts, advertisements for a KKK rally, or chocolate cookie recipes.
The big issue here, at least as it appears to me, is that the Council is deciding which rules to apply and which ones to ignore, and to which persons they should apply and which ones they shouldn't apply, based upon race and other illegal criteria. They would love to see the discussion go over into one regarding the distribution of religious literature. That issue is gone and over with. Curb the hysteria. Instead, look at what's happening now, and what is that going to cost the City's residents.
Oh, and incidentally, our Mayor tried very hard a few years ago to ban the "F" word within the City of Hickory. If you're really interested, you should ask someone at City Hall about it. If they haven't destroyed them, there are bound to be records remaining on it.
Anonymous, I stated that I am very well versed on Federal and State laws not archaic permit procedures administered by a bunch of backwoods council people. However my sources at City Hall advise me that the Jaycees are obtaining a "permit to sell alcohol" on Union Square. The City officials with input from the Police Department decide where the Jaycees beer garden "area" should be located. One year it was located way too close to the railroad tracks and there were several near fatalities.
Now these "preachers" WERE NOT inside the roped off area where the Jaycees were selling the beer and The Jaycees only have "questionable" control of the roped in area. In any case these men were on the area outside of the "beer garden." Perfectly legal and a public area in any case. Again let me state that I do not care if they are giving away relious tracts or UFO warnings. It is a public place and they have that right. The area is roped off to keep the beer drinkers inside the drinking area. Not to keep others from entering the area. Say you drink but your date does not then she can go in with you while you imbibe. However, if you take a beer outside the area you can be charged with consuming a malt beverage on a public street or on city property in violation of city code.
This enables the police to make sure that the drinking stays in this one small area.
Now for the sake of argument let's just say that the "preachers" were inside the roped area. Merely "renting" or buying a permit to be there on city property does not supersede the fact that it is still public property and belongs to the city and every citizen of the city and not just the Jaycees or the beer drinkers. Any cop should know this. The police officers have a duty to advise the "preachers" to PLEASE stay out of the roped area and they can continue handing out there tracts without further harrassment. That is not what happened. Two ignorant cops arrested the men and set off a firestorm and a possible lawsuit. That is unacceptable! Whats more Council ladies Sally Fox and Jill Patton support the police in these unlawful arrests. Talk about ignorant politicians who are supposed to protect our rights as citizens.
To tie this argument in with the original thread goes like this.
You should go try and get a permit to sell alcohol on Union Square. You want get it! Nope no chance. Several businesses and beer distributors have tried and been turned down flat. Nope just those good ol' Jaycees. Kinda makes you go hmmmm now doesn't it?
That goes back to the original discussion. The City Council and the police department need to follow the current laws and and not make up ones to fit a certain scenario. Nor should they have a moratorium on business licenses in order to make more laws to keep what they believe to be undesirable businesses from opening up. Council and Police should not limit who can sell alcohol on city property because they are council's friends or supporters or members of the Jaycees. If the Jaycees can sell beer on the Square then any other entrepreneur should be able to compete with the Jaycees in alcohol sells. Secondly the city should not be renting our property for people to sell alcohol in the first place. That should be limited to bars like Mr. Johnson's client wants to open. I'm also sure that bars and restaurants around the Square do not appreciate The Jaycees cutting into their profits when they can't sell alcohol outside of their buldings without losing their alcohol permits. Yet another reason to go hmmmmm.
Lastly, the police officers were being paid by the Jaycees to work off duty for them. One of my police buddies worked "off duty" for the Jaycees the prior week and stated he was glad he was not working on the night the preachers came. That's right. The cops were being paid by the Jaycees. You think that might also have influenced the cops? This whole mess stinks. City Council should not be deciding who gets permits and business licenses based upon a person's "connections", socio economic status, or skin color.
That is a fact.
^
Those are great arguments and I have often wondered the same things about this situation as far a those Friday nights on the square. I believe that Rudy Wright is a member of the Jaycees.
I do know that these Friday night events kill business for local restaurants. When these go on there is hardly anyone that goes to my aunt's retaurant, at those times of the year. The Fridays, during that time of year when they don't take place, her business is about double.
Along with many other issues, involving our downtown area, they need to be revisited and reworked. I think that will be hard to happen as long as we have the current make-up of council.
Sally Fox has Rudy's ear when it comes to issues of downtown and Jill Patton is in Sally's hip pocket on 99% of all issues. I almost think Jill Patton ran so that Sally would have two votes -haha.
All it takes is to convince 1 of the other 4 on the council, on one of these issues, and they can ramrod these issues down the other 30,000 people's throat's (that don't agree with them).
The 'preachers' placed themselves in from of people who declined their tracts and made a nuisance of themselves. They have NO right pushing themselves off on others in that way...there are laws against that. As for the officers being untrained, I don't know both officers, but I know one has been on the force for at least a dozen years, has training quite often, and teaches classes himself. I know he has put himself on the line more than once. I highly suspect the anon person who so vehemently defended the rogue preachers is affiliated with the group, as no mention was made of their aggressive tactics. As it was pointed out though, the discussion is on the moratorium.
Incidentally, if my child was 'adult' enough to participate in a protest, I would be there to bail him/her out of jail, but I would also point out to him/her that he/she was therefore apparently 'adult' enough to handle the consequences.
The question is what can we all do other that vote every two years? Jill Patton and Bruce Meisner both attend the same church so they are joined at the hip. Like you stated Mr. Shell I also believe that Jill Patton is just a second vote for Sally Fox. Patton is Fox's ventriliquest doll. It seems very few people care about the real working class citizens of Hickory. It amazes me that City Council would allow the Jaycees to sell beer on Friday nights and ruin the business of the restaurants and bars around downtown Hickory. Then council states they want to bring business to Hickory and revitalize downtown. You can't have it both ways. You can't treat your year round businesses like they don't exist on Friday nights and then ask more people to invest in downtown. If Rudy "Spanky" Wright is a Jaycee then that is one reason police were quick to make an unlawful arrest. That and the fact that The Jaycees are paying the police to work for them.
I don't know if Mr. Johnson's client is black, white, or purple but based upon the way he is being treated here in Hickory, I would say he is a minority. It is sad that Hickory is still back in the 1940's. If he is a minority them where are all the leaders of the minority community? Where in the heck are all the so called decent white people? Whenever I travel to visit friends in Asheville they ask me how things are going in Honkyville aka Hickory? We should all be outraged that our City Council is being run by some racist people elected to lead our city and make it a good place to live for all law abiding citizens.
Just me, You have missed the point here. The arrests were UNLAWFUL and tainted by the fact that the police were working for the Jaycees as off duty officers.
The officer you speak of is a person I know very well. He has a lot of training and no common sense in many people's opinion including mine. Maybe the one officer has taken too many karate kicks to the head.
Never the less I am in no way affiliated with EITHER of the men illegally arrested nor any church. I would not know them if I saw them nor can I even recall their names from news reports.
I like everyone get annoyed from time to time by visits from The Mormons, Girl Scouts, politicians, etc. but I know they can not be arrested nor do I want them arrested.
My concern is that the Mayor (a Jaycee) and City Council is dictating who gets a business license and who gets arrested at times. Especially when the Mayor has a stake in the beer sales at the Jaycees beer garden.
On your final point that your daughter should be old enough to handle the consequences of an unlawful arrest is insane. A legal arrest for a crime she actually committed, yes I agree.
Fix your eye glsses. The charges were dropped! They were dropped because their was no probable cause for the arrest! Can't you see that this is illegal? Very likely an obstruction of justice if some politician pushed the police to make an unlawful arrest. So if a police officer arrested your daughter for a crime which she DID NOT committ then that is o.k. with you because she is a big girl? You can not arrest people for FREEDOM of Speech and you would be the most hated parent on earth with that attitude.
I used to work for the City. I know how the people there operate. The officer I spoke of has more common sense than most people, is quite rational, and as far as I know has never been karate kicked.
A 'war protest' or any other kind of protest, is usually a large gathering of people for which a permit is required. If my daughter chose to join, then she exercised her rights, as I have raised her to do.
And again, the rogue preachers have no constitutional right to invade anyone else's space when their offer of literature is declined.
As for the Jaycees ruining business on Friday nights, I'm sure their presence could do that. At the same time, maybe they draw people in from out of town who go home and say "hey...let's run back to Hickory and check out the stores uptown next weekend when we have more time to shop."
I also think, but am not positive, there is a process to go through to leave those coupons on people's cars when they're parked. Probably not a process many follow. Again, someone is invading MY space, touching MY personal property....in a public area. They do not have that right. I am so tired of hearing people hide behind religion, freedom of speech, and children. Freedom of speech does not give one the right to say and do anything they care to say or do whenever and wherever they so choose and to whom they so choose.
Before everyone runs amok, there needs to be a bit of fact checking.
Rudy Wright is NOT a Jaycee. Jaycees have an age limit, and Mr. Wright is far beyond that age. He is, in fact, a Rotarian. James, as the moderator you should have checked this before you made such an assertion.
Mr. Johnson's clients are Mexican American. That shouldn't matter, but it seems to make a difference to the Council Members opposing the establishment of this place.
There are solutions right now, prior to the elections. Phone numbers are published for the council members, City manager, Assistant Manager, City Attorney and Planning Director. CALL THEM AND VOICE YOUR OBJECTION. If 1% of the people in town would call the City Manager's office (828-323-7512) or the Mayor's cell phone (which he's given out, but I don't know), it'll send a message to them. Call all of the Council Members both at work and at home, stop by Sally's store and tell her what you think. If you want your voice heard, go to the source.
Incidentally, the first lawsuit over this has alredy been filed. Who doesn't think that the taxpayers aren't going to get stuck with the bill for this in the long run?
You've got a great site here, please don't mess it up and lose credibility by feeding into the fearmongers. Check the facts before sounding off.
I apologize for being wrong about the fact of Rudy Wright being a Jaycee. This could be misconstrued for a reason for him to have a conflict of interest about the beer garden. He was in fact discussing his membership as a Rotarian on Hal Rowe last Monday.
I got the two mixed up and I do not pretend to understand what these two organizations are about.
I will try not to make this kind of mistake in the future, although we all make mistakes from time to time.
Thank You for pointing out my error and the comments.
Just me,
You are incorrect on on several points. A protest can be made by just one person. Apparently you have never been approached by the two men at the U.S. Post Office who are protesting our current war. Hickory Police advised employees of the post office and citizens that the two men could stand and hand out literature as long as they do not physically touch anyone or block the entrance to the post office. The post office building also houses the local F.B.I. office and they did not even attempt to have the men removed. They have a right to be there and they did not need a permit according to the Hickory Police Officer who responded. I already told the employees this but they insisted on hearing it from someone else. Thank God the d two rogue beer garden officers did not respond to the Post Office and also that your daughter was not one of the two people handing out literature. That would have been another lawsuit that us citizens and taxpayers would have had to pay. The officer who responded to this call had some training and common sense.
Secondly the "preachers" must have the right do to whatever they did because they are not in jail nor are they going to court to face any charges. The police and you must have been wrong or those men would not have had their charges dropped by The District Attorney. The D.A. knew that he was not about to be named in the lawsuit that has now been filed by these two men. You can argue all you want but you can't change the facts. THE CHARGES WERE DROPPED! If the charges had been upheld then you would have been right and I would be wrong. However, the District Attorney and I are both right!
Thirdly, I have spoken with the restaurant owners on the Square because I eat there frequently. They all state that they lose business and revenue do to the Jaycee's beer garden.
Finally, Freedom of Speech does give you many rights. You can burn the American Flag in public. You can call someone a f***ing idiot in public, you can flip someone off in public, you can be homeless and sit on a bench on Union Square all day long! You can also attempt to hand out literature to people on Union Square. Just ask the District Attorney he will tell you so. Oh yeah, you can also go ask the defense attorneys who are about to get a big payday for those two preachers compliments of that dumb officer you like so much and the City of Hickville. I mean Hickory.
Mr. Shell...I'm sorry...I didn't mean for your forum to become a grounds for mudslinging, hate mongering and name calling. Please feel free to remove any posts made by me that served to further remove the focus from your original post. Thank you for keeping an eye on the city. They need watching.
Jus me,
You mean the mudslinging that you started when you referred to the preachers as "rogue preachers." Also your negative comments about people hiding behind religion and freedom of speech. Two of the greatest freedoms on this earth and ones that this great country is founded upon? I believe that you are the negative minded mudslinger.
You also need to check your facts. You might have worked for the city in some small capacity but it is very evident that Anonymous knows the laws very well indeed.
Anonymous has shown how the preaching incident ties into the moratorium. If you are white and connected to City Council like the Jaycees are then you can sell beer on the Square and hurt year round local businesses like Mr. Shell's aunt's restaurant. If you are a minority then you can't even get a business license to open a bar in Hickory due to several members of City Council and the Hickory Police being racist.
It is clear to see that discrimination is the reason behind the moratorium and Anonymous explains it well.
Since we are back to the original issue, I don't mind answering. You couldn't know, but I worked for the city within a time frame and capacity that allows me to agree with you wholeheartedly, that if one is white, educated, etc, etc, rather than a minority, you have a much better chance of getting what you want from city council. If only all council members could see the city as a whole, as Z. Ann Hoyle does. Mr. Shell does a great job viewing both sides of an issue, and I appreciate his dedication.
Just me, You made a statement but you did not answer my questions. I asked you if you were referring to the mudslinging that you started when you referred to the two gentlemen preachers as "rogue preachers"? And I also ask you why you hate people "hiding behind" religion and freedom of speech? They are rights that this great country is founded upon. If you hate them so much then please feel free to move to countries like China or Iran.
Ms Jean,
We really don't need to create that kind of vitriol do we?
Is that going to move this discussion forward or rehash views that have been fully vetted in this forum. Eventually it just gets to the point of a broken record.
Does it matter what his views are on religion? Are they going to change your views? I know what my faith is, Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior, and I will talk about it with anyone willing to listen, but if they don't want to hear it, then I am not going to get into a shouting match with them.
No one questions the faith of those evangelists on the square.
People aren't going to be brought to our side, by creating animus. We should bring love, tolerance, and understanding. That is what Christ did. He brought many non-believers, not that any of the people on this thread are necessarily, into the fold.
Let's not try to push people into corners.
I understand where you are coming from but if "Just me" is going to acuse another writer of mudslinging, and hate mongering then "Just me" needs to be held accountable for his or her remarks as well. He needs to re-examine his own statements.
You can't hate free speech as "Just me" states and then come on a website and practice free speech. You can't have it both ways. That is what we all should point out to free speech opponents.
I am not in favor or against the preachers. I don't know how sincere they are. I am not able to examine their hearts but I know they committed no crimes. I do know when I see someone who hates other people to have free speech but they can't wait to have their free speech heard. They wail and moan about my space my privacy my rights and tread upon the rights of others to be heard.
Anonymous is totally right. The arrests were illegal and the charges dropped. The cops should be fired since their actions caused the lawsuit which will cost all of us taxpayers money.
If you are a Christian then you must respect my right to free speech here. I simply called "Just me" out for name calling, and hate mongering. That is my right. If it offends you then I am sorry that you feel that way but I don't apologize for my right to voice my opinion. It is guaranteed under the First Ammendment of The U.S. Constitution. As an attorney I guess I would know.
Geez people. The original post was on the moratorium. Not rogue preachers or rogue cops or rogue writers or whatever. I do not hate anyone. I dislike the use of religion, children, animals, neighborhood cores, and a multitude of other things as a shield for unruly, disruptive, unacceptable behavior. I do not at all doubt the evangelist's passion and beliefs, but you were not privy to email I exchanged with one of them, so you have no idea of the things that were said. I too believe in Jesus Christ as my almighty savior, and I'm willing to talk to anyone who wishes about that...but only to those who wish. I will also defend all but the most abusive of police officers and most other public servants for that matter, because theirs is a thankless, think on your feet at a moment's notice, please everyone perfectly type of job. Theirs is a job no one else wants, but everyone else surely makes those calls for help when they need it, and then spends time badmouthing the help they got. Reminds me of a story about a cat in a tree...neighbors call the fire dept...after finally getting a fire out, a small contingent goes out, tired, soot covered, to check on the cat...indignant neighbors tell them they got tired of waiting on help, got a ladder and did it themselves.
So...I do not hate anyone, I am a Christian, I will not apologize for defending public servants, and I will not apologize for not wanting to have my space invaded in public.
I also will not post anything else here not dealing with the moratorium, so goad all you want. I agreed with you on that MsJean...can we stay on subject?
Amen, Let's talk about the moratorium. The issue of the Cersil brothers and their proposed establishment downtown.
Can anyone contribute to that? What are y'all thinking about that?
Justme, Please go away we do not care to hear about "your space" anymore.
I say let the brothers whoever they are open the bar! They should have the right to have a business just like anyone else. They are being discriminated against because they are not white and they want to open a bar and not some lousy jewelry store or artsy fartsy store like we already have enough of.
I say "support the police". Beat yourself up so they don't have to make up a reason to do it.
Now open those bars up and let's get this party started!
You tell them Ms.Jean! You are 100 percent right.
I also agree with gothgirl. Enough from Justme!!! blah blah my space...blah blah blah!
Let's open the bar up and see where it goes. They can be fined by law enforcement if they break the rules. Hope it is State cops and not HPD or they might try to Rodney King the poor guys. Those brothers should contact the ACLU and sue the City just like everyone else is!
I could use a good drink right now!
I call them like I see them. Justme, you need to stop trying to kiss up to Mr. Shell and stay on the subject of the moratorium.
The men should open the bar up! Council should be tar and feathered. Gothgirl sounds cool. Anonymous knows his laws and stuff, and Ms. Jean is probably a looker.
Now let's all meet at The Tap Room and have drink! You can order a coke Mr. Shell and you are welcome to come!
Man yall hatin on just me like yall sayin he's hatin. couple his posts said talk about the bar nothing else. And I didn't see no kissin up to the shell guy and he agreed it was gettin out of hand. yall too busy talkin yain't listenin. he;s entitled to his space liek the rest of ya and you can't tell me yall don't like your space too so its hypocritical to tell him to shut up. Mean too. an the way yall talk about the police aint nuthin but hate. city council hate. jaycees hate. yall hatin too is all i'm sayin so yall ought to lay off just me. heck he agreed about city counciland the bar and yall just kept on bout that other stuff.
an yall be likin on the district attorney. anybody park in a handicap spot that shouldnt and then tell a city employe to get the ticket fixed will do anything.
Handicap people do not have a leg to stand on. ha!
Let the D.A. park in their places. We need fewer handicap spaces and trees and more open spaces for Obama love shacks and more marijuana fields to mellow out the republicans and Mcaininites... We should allow all people to sell the devil's water. White bar owners sell legal mind altering drugs (alcohol) so why can't minorities sell it?
Most honkys like "Just me" want their space, their rights, their white bread world. You ain't got no rights if the man says you don't. The man is the one with the badge and gun and carrying the blackjack so he can crack your head. Ask those white preachermen. Course they are gonna be rich so who cares.
Let the two brothers open the bar and make a legal living like all the other bar owners.
Then we can all join hands read the Koran with Barack Hussein Obama and then sing "Give peace a chance".
Maybe we should all go back to discussing the preachers illegal arrests. Every since we changed the subject back to the moratorium no one is talking! LOL!
But please no more from Just me about "my space" and that same ol crap. I think the preachers space was violated the most. After all they were handcuffed fingerprinted and their photos taken. They were arrested. "Just me" just had to listen to those preachers preach. Perhaps those preachers really worked on a lot of the alcoholics and sinners consciences.
In the words of Jack Nicholson
"You can't handle the truth!"
Sistersoul,
You may be on to something here. Perhaps the preachers hit a nerve with those alcoholics and beer drinkers. If I was drinking beer, which I don't then I could listen to those guys preaching too. I have to listen to Barack Hussein Obama every day and night and I can't get away from the man. If I can listen to his Islamic insanity then I can listen to anyone.
Now, as for the moratorium.
We don't need any new bars but I believe that the gentlemen should be able to open one up if they want to. It sounds racist that they are not allowed the same rights as other businessmen and women.
I for one am tired of taking my kids to City sponsored events and then the city provides organizations a place to sell alcohol. Why can't we have family fun without alcohol? Why does the city allow alcohol on the square during these events when it is illegal to have alcohol on the Square or any other public street the rest of the time? Every time my family has gone to Octoberfest, Hickory Alive or Springfest we have witnessed drunks fighting or wandering out of the beer "cage" and causing problems. The profanity we hear is unbelievable. I would rather hear the preachers than a bunch of drunks cussing and screaming at each other. The police have to be hired by the Jaycees just to keep the drunks in a cage. It is a shame that some people can not enjoy the food, and fun without drinking alcohol.
Let's ask the city to make this a family event and not a fraternity party fest.
The drinking should be limited to the bars and restaurants. The bar owners will be happy and the families even happier.
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