So we have to go through a Council Member to get an item removed from the Consent Agenda and if they don't agree, then it won't be pulled from the Consent Agenda. Again, what do these people have against citizens having a voice. They state that they are worried about the process being abused over petty issues. We are upset because this Council has consented to allowing the City Manager to abuse the Consent Agenda process and way to go Hickory Daily Record for once again toting the city's water without asking a freaking critical question. The HDR continually shows in the end whose side they are on.
From Harry Hipps: The "fix" they have articulated is that you can talk to a council member before the meetings if you want something removed from the consent agenda. They are supposed to hang out in the lobby or in chambers to listen to citizens prior to going in to conduct business. The problems are: 1) the council member may be disinterested and not inclined to support the citizen's request, 2) the council member has no time to research the concern or reflect on any new facts or perspectives that may come to light, 3) the conversation with the council member is informal and is not publicly recorded which doesn't allow for other citizens learning of the concern and is wide open for a misinterpretation or denial of the private conversation held, 4) the citizen still doesn't have the opportunity to voice their concern and would probably do so more passionately and comprehensively than the council member who just had something dropped in their lap, and finally, 5) the members probably have a consensus position already and it would be an uphill climb to stop and reverse an immanent action.
Again, we see the control freak mentality. Citizens can't vote and we're just asking to comment. The power of the vote still rests with the council members and they really want to act without question. The abusing of the process argument is a straw man. Yes, it could happen, but they could restrict the abusers time or even call them out of order and have them removed from the podium. I don't see this happening often, though there is the possibility it could happen. Which begs the question: Should we risk the occasional outburst to increase public participation? My answer: yes.
Sad sad sad. But it befuddles me that they are so scared of losing control. Once again Rudy promises better and we get worse. And this man ran unopposed.
The Hound: If it is such a bad thing for the people of Hickory to have a voice within their governance and the only governmental process that is afforded is through the directives of an established Commissar with no checks and balances, then we no longer live under the established principles in which this nation was founded. Although I have no voice in any matters related to our governance and the people of Hickory have shown an unwillingness to take ownership of their personal role in the format of Republican Democracy, I would like to suggest that we do away with the outdated and unrecognized creed of the Pledge of Allegiance. Liberty and Justice for all - what kind of fantasy world is that?
Who are we pledging to anyway? Honestly, the real pledge should be to serve oneself and those who can personally enrich us. That is what we have seen in this country. I won't stand for this Anthem, but I think many would be more comfortable with its theme. Its not the words. Its the attitude.
And this is cynical, but it comes from frustration in dealing with By Hook or By Crook Governance.
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Monday, May 14, 2012
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24 comments:
You should know by now that most decisions that affect the city of Hickory are made at the Lake Hickory Country Club, not at some council meeting. The people that controlled the industrial feudal system for a hundred years still control. Far from socialism, it is the end game of unbridled capitalism.
I don't buy that this is Capitalism. Never quite understood why people want to sluff off on Capitalism. True capitalism foments a multitude of ideas and along with it dialogue related to those ideas. From there the best of ideas naturally gravitate to the top based upon their merit.
Choosing ideas before the process begins and directing that everything center around the implementation of that process is the best of the Stalinist model of Government and that is no exaggeration.
They say that the trains always ran on time under Stalin, because if they didn't....
I think there are some people around here that think that is the ticket to successful governance. Obedience or .....
Why? Because not unlike Stalinist Russia, the Industrial Capitalist system centered around 'the Mill'. Where 'the State' was the source of all things in one instance, 'the Mill' became so in the other. It owned the houses, the store, the mill; every aspect of the people's lives. And in true capitalist tradition, the owners made back a huge portion of the money it just paid out in wages for the person's existence. Sure you had a choice under either system. You could take a bullet in the case of the Soviets, or starve in the case of rampant capitalist industrialization. The end result is the same. Both feed on, manipulate, and exploit people. Both work around the perpetuation of a central core. One is just state centered and the other corporate centered. We can debate the intricacies from now until the cows come home. But the overall outcome, who benefits, and to what extent, that to me is determinant and I’ve already established that in the previous sentence. One better than the other? In their pure forms, I wouldn’t turn my hand over for the difference between them. Neither is desirable or sustaining in a pure form for very long. We saw the collapse of a pure ‘communist totalitarian utopic’ state. We will see the collapse of pure ‘capitalistic totalitarian utopic’ corporate rule. The scary part is, what will be spun out to emerge dominant in the aftermath.
I cannot disagree with what you said here. I would state that the problem does not lie in either theory. The problem comes about through implementation. There was an elite class in the Soviet Union (Politburo on down). There has been an elite class that has formed uin this country and it is operating in much the same fashion that occurred in the Soviet Union.
They're picking winners and losers, operating in an "end justifies the means" fashion, and using public monies as a personal capital pool. Same Model.
Remember folks, all politics begin at the local level. This is the reason why this country is shot. It starts local and rises to the top.
No Accountability. Funny thing is that some folks don't understand that accountant/accounting is fully related to accountability. Accountants are their to make sure that private and public entities are accountable for their books (Financial Ledgers and Processes). If you are not accountable, then how can you push a notion of being this great all-fired Accountant?
Account - [uh-kount]
1. an oral or written description of particular events or situations; narrative: an account of the meetings; an account of the trip.
2. an explanatory statement of conduct, as to a superior.
3. a statement of reasons, causes, etc., explaining some event.
4. reason; basis: On this account I'm refusing your offer.
5. importance; worth; value; consequence: things of no account.
The people who control this area are the ones who rose to the top of the system because of good ideas, very much a kind of economic Darwinism. The problem is that in this case they will do anything to hold on to that control. I believe you mean Italy/trains/Musolini who was facist which is closer to what we have.
The same was said of Stalin. If things didn't run right (ie trains, farms, factories), then managers were dealt with harshly. Governance through FEAR and top down AUTHORITY.
Fascism, Communism, Socialism. It's all the same. Created, manifested, operated, and invested in by the same types of people.
Hickory Hound Dog, One Dog that Won't Hunt
WOW
It is inconceivable to me that citizens, based on their few comments I've noticed here, are so uneducated and mere simpletons.
REALLY?
Our government is not a "mob rule" form of procedure. If you scream the loudest and whine and cry, it does not entitle you to have your way. Maybe your mother gave in to you as a child, but this is the real world.
Our government, whether local, state, or at the Federal level, is a REPRESENTATIVE REPUBLIC. Which means, we as a society vote for people to represent us and carry on the daily functions of government. It does not guarantee citizens nor appoint us as CEO, President, Shareholder, or better yet, Dictator over decisions each of us feel may not be correct or agree with. We do have the right to vote someone out of office if we are not happy with their decisions made, but to micro-manage each and every decision is ludicrous.
Pavers? Swimming Pools? Really?
Instead of complaining 24/7 and making it your life's mission to be a thorn in the side of the City of Hickory's management group as a whole, why not spend that same energy starting a business, hiring people, and increasing the tax base for your city that would allow unprecedented growth in your area to afford those things. Then, if you are successful, spend some of that hard earned money of your own to build a public pool, pay for its upkeep and staff for the next 30 years without charging admission?
Oh, how important the pools and pavers would be now if it were coming out of your own pockets.
"Socialist Republic", you should be ashamed Hound Dog. The very freedom you exercise here in the criticism of your government is proof enough you are blessed to live in a free society. If not, Stalin would have already come calling.
Sometimes I wake up in the mornings and think, My God, is this really the United States of America?
I find inherently amusing that when someone has their toes stepped on with regard to Hickory City Government, one of these little nefarious notes shows up.
You’re right; it’s not a “mob rule” form of procedure. It’s a ‘whatever we decide it is’ form of procedure. An abomination that could quickly and simply be rectified by adopting “Roberts’ Rules of Order” but that would be too simple and easy. No, instead Hickory City Council must make their own rules of procedure to cause derision among the people. The Constitution (and that would be Federal) gives us the right to seek redress of grievance from Government. It also guarantees due process under the law and equal protection under the same law. Insofar as this notion of “REPRESENTATIVE REPUBLIC” goes, this is how it’s defined, “A republic is representative in some form by nature, so "representative republic" is a redundant term that is no more meaningful than the word "republic". http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_a_representative_republic#ixzz1v3RkndaZ
We ARE however, a ‘Representative Democracy’ as opposed to a ‘Direct Democracy’. The reasons for which are, quite simply, how hard would it be to get everybody together to vote or get consensus even, on an issue? That’s right, improbable if not impossible. But that is regional. If you travel to New England, wise one, you will find Direct Democracies at work today.
We do not have “The right to vote someone out of office.” We have the right to vote. Having said that, just because you win or retain office by a majority of votes cast doesn’t mean that majority rules. People confuse that, because, what if the majority is wrong?
See, you make the same lack of focus mistake as many others. It isn’t the decision that is so much in question, as it is the PROCESS. And for the record, it IS the public’s money being spent; yours and mine, so WE do have a stake in the process. Drop what is now turning out to be almost a half million dollars on a project without so much as a “so, what do ya’ll think?” being uttered because it is on the consent agenda and not open to public debate, input, or notice. So you see, PROCESS; not the decision made, but HOW.
Speaking of good ideas there Bub, you got any? Oh that’s right, if you did, you wouldn’t share them here, right?
Ok Thom, you can chastise away at me now.
Our government is not a "mob rule" form of procedure.
No, our local government is the "rubber stamp" form of procedure. Refer to every decision made on the tent so far. More examples of city council's rubber stamp governance gladly furnished upon request.
If you scream the loudest and whine and cry, it does not entitle you to have your way.
That does not preclude everyone from having a voice anyway. Democracy is not always pretty, quiet and orderly. Get over it.
To micro-manage each and every decision is ludicrous.
Most sane people agree with your point. The consent agenda is meant to approve items that do not merit debate or controversy.
The controversy started when the city used $285,000 of *parking fund* money as a slush fund to build a *tent* on the square. Then City Council said oops, we didn't think this through properly, let's rubber stamp $137,000 more for all of the stuff we forgot. Larry Pope questioned this on December 21, 2010 and the Mayor pretty much told him to stuff it.
The tent was outsourced to a company in New Zealand which not only hurts local awning businesses but flips the bird at them. It was computer modeled on the back of a napkin by an unlicensed architect. Fundamental flaws were found in the original design requiring substantial revisions, re: deeper foundations and thicker poles capable of supporting the load and withstanding wind shear. I'm guessing Zagaroli Construction will be allowed to keep the $4,800 for the flawed design. The painfully amateur 3-D renderings, not to mention the ugly design conflicting with downtown's existing architecture, were warning signs that things were seriously wrong with the project.
The quote didn't take lighting, electrical, storage, stage, or maintanence costs into consideration - considerations that may have been raised if this $422,000+ catastrophe were publicly debated first.
The design didn't take rain into consideration. The big gaps in the structure's roof ensure a farmer's market waterpark when it rains. An open air stage is also a mistake, just ask the musicians when their expensive instruments get wet when it drizzles. I can't wait to see how water cascades and puddles off of those computer generated sails. I expect another $100k to be rubber stamped on the consent agenda to take care of unforeseen drainage issues.
No competing designs were solicited.
No competing bids were solicited.
No RFP has been produced.
I haven't heard what the replacement cost for the tarp material will be when it needs to be replaced in 8 to 10 years.
Instead of complaining 24/7 and making it your life's mission to be a thorn in the side of the City of Hickory's management group as a whole, why not spend that same energy starting a business, hiring people, and increasing the tax base for your city that would allow unprecedented growth in your area to afford those things.
I have a business. There is nothing wrong with asking how my tax dollars are being wasted by you inept rubber stamp politicians. I'm sorry, I meant how parking fund slush money is misappropriated by you inept rubber stamp politicians.
This administration has proved it is anti-business by outsourcing to a New Zealand company and gifting the tent project to pre-selected companies without allowing bids or other proposals.
"Socialist Republic", you should be ashamed Hound Dog. The very freedom you exercise here in the criticism of your government is proof enough you are blessed to live in a free society. If not, Stalin would have already come calling. Sometimes I wake up in the mornings and think, My God, is this really the United States of America?
Is this Rudy Wright or another council member? This smacks of Mayor Wright's political grandstanding heard on the Hal Row show. Keep fighting the good fight Mr. Shell. Not only is your reporting getting through to City Council, but maybe you can wake up enough people to vote these bums out of office.
As a follow up, I must say I admire the passion in all of you here in your quest to make a difference and help shape your community.
I think it bares repeating that we are in fact, a REPRESENTATIVE REPUBLIC. Please refer to the U.S. Constitution as proof. More specifically, we are a constitutional federal republic. However, our government is operated as a representative democracy by a congress. The important distinction is that we are not operated democratically, but rather by representatives who come to power by a democratic process. This was an essential and subtle fundamental of the constitution: We are NOT a true democracy which could amount to mob rule, but a representative democracy in which our leaders act in our interests.
I realize it is difficult to believe this in today's political environment. We have been enundated with the belief that the constitution is of little importance. In a society that has enjoyed so much freedom for so long, generations have no idea of those freedoms that are protected by it. Worse, there is a political climate and force that wishes to alter those freedoms that have long been enjoyed by us all.
If people persist with the thinking that government is the cure all and responsible for the well being of every individuals happiness, we will collapse as a country. That starts here, locally. Sadly to admit, we have traveled far down that road already.
Yes, New England states have moved towards changes that conflict with our original founding. The effects are devastating. California is included in this. Billions in debt as a result of trying to take care of and please everyone. This is a very dangerous and could create tremendous fallout in the short term, which we are seeing already. Pure democracy will lead to mob rule and ultimate collapse. SEE END OF ROMAN EMPIRE.
Lastly, I'm sure you would love for myself to be associated with your local government. I'm in no way a part of government. Just a citizen who cares and wants to inform. I'm sure your elected officials have much more important items on their agendas to handle than to repond here and that is why I felt obligated to respond.
Bravo! Finally someone without an ax to grind on and on against any and all that is done in the City of Hickory!
Buy 'em books, send 'em to school, and sheesh, they still get it wrong. Article IV, Section 4, of the United States Constitution states, "The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened), against domestic Violence." A REPUBLICAN form of government, is a REPUBLIC is comprised of REPRESENTATIVES. Hence, those two words mean the SAME thing in that use.
I don't know what you're talking about concerning change in New England. Those local governments using the Direct Democracy approach have been doing so since the colonies became states. There's not many of them, but they seem to like and think it works well for them. But they still use 'selectmen' to satisfy Article IV, Section 4. And I think the inherent problems with pure 'Democracy' were identified with the Greeks. A century or two before the Romans thought they could improve upon it.
Yes, I think you would make a lovely addition to local governance. Fit right in, as it were. And yes, it sure was bare, it just didn't bear repeating, it was just as wrong the second time around.
Bare/Bear, Potato/Potatoe - Ok, call me Dan Quayle... sorry, my teleprompter wasn't working yesterday.
I'm aware emphasis placed on making a condescending comment always has worked well for self-proclaimed elitists it efforts to distract from substance.
Buy them books...said..."The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened), against domestic Violence." A REPUBLICAN form of government, is a REPUBLIC is comprised of REPRESENTATIVES.
Definition of Republic: a state in which the supreme power rests in the body of citizens entitled to vote and is exercised by representatives chosen directly or indirectly by them.
Union of Soviet Socialist Republics-
a former federal union of 15 constituent REPUBLICS, in E Europe and W and N Asia, comprising the larger part of the former Russian Empire: dissolved in December 1991
So, Republic(an) and Representative are one and the same?
Therefore, as you so adamantly believe, we are the U.S.S.A (United Socialist States of America) as compared to the U.S.S.R.(United Socialist States of Russia).
ONE PERSON ON THE BALLOT IN RUSSIA DURING ELECTIONS.
Our republic was founded much differently than that of the former Soviet Union. Sadly, there are efforts to steer our original founding principles into that direction.
Hence the flaw in the basic foundation and beliefs of your thinking. I realize it is difficult, no, improbable and sometimes impossible to re-program ones beliefs once they have been ingrained for so long.
And I also noticed, in Article IV, there was no mention of that government shall provide pools and pavers, just saying.
Lastly, I will apologize in advanced for any misspelled words, teleprompter isnt working today as well. Union strike I believe.
Egad, I’m dealing with a Clairvoyant. They KNOW what I’m thinking! Ok, just for you, I’m going to tell you what I’m thinking. I’m thinking you’re ignorant. You have an utter lack of concept of what the terms are that you’re attempting to use in a context that has no or little actual application in this particular discussion. Go back and read WHAT I’ve written, not what you THINK I’m saying. Then, stop trying to twist what I said to convolute to your own ridiculous premises.
Want to talk about the former country known as East Germany? Otherwise known as the DDR or the Deutsche Demokratic Republik? How about the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea, otherwise known as North Korea. Simply having those words in the title doesn’t give them validity in their use.
Elitist? I’m anything but. I just happen to know what the words mean you’re trying to use. The curse of a life spent working in Government and a classical education where those same words were used, defined, and explained.
But by all means, please continue with your wonderful prognostications of what I’m thinking. Let everyone that reads this see you for the charlatan you are.
"I'm no elitist, I just happen to know all" ... haha
Have proven my point, thank you.
Charlaton? ... I detect no deception in my words, only the truth.
Truth? You wouldn't know the truth if it hit you between the eyes disguised as a Mack Truck.
And once again, you've taken something and twisted it to comport it to suit yourself.
But you keep on keeping on there Einstein, we're rooting for ya!
You can't put forth a differnt opinion here without the Hound's friend coming at you with name calling or is it the Hound in disguise to have more blog time?
They are as entitled to their opinion as you are. I think that you don't like their opinion. Is that correct?
I think where a lot of this comes from is that certain people that have vested interests related to this project can't stand that their connected interests are being questioned. That didn't happen in the past.
You always have the HDR to parrot whatever you say. We question things, support things, and stand against things. Our values aren't ties to whom is going to pad our pockets this week.
Isn't it you that seeks to have a monopoly of message and ideas?
Good Socialist principles in practice. Shoot down the message and the messenger. Obfuscate the point. We are accused of attacking by a troll. Isn't that rich. Sieg heil baby!!!
See you at the next council meeting!
Opinion? Opinions are usually prefaced with something like, "I think that..." or "It's my opinion that...." I have yet to see you render an opinion. Conjecture, inuendo, and just toro caca, that I've seen you throw around as fact and 'truth'.
Name calling? Like, say, "Hickory Hound Dog, One Dog that Won't Hunt." Is that the name calling you're talking about? That was your opening line in your first post.
You come on here to try and make others look bad and it ended up backfiring on you. You are here to be an instigator and maintain the status quo as a minion to the ruling elite because someone dares stand up and ask questions about how they conduct business.
So if you want to debate this, fine, I can be civil. And by doing so, I'll afford you the common courtesy you failed to exhibit with your first post here on May 16th at 11:29am.
I won't however apologize or be sorry for my life's work nor the education I have. Not to you, not to anyone. I worked hard for all of it, nothing was handed to me or made easy.
And no, I'm certainly not Thom Shell. He's a lot more patient and tolerant than I am. Besides, its his blog. He can write as much or as little as he pleases I'm thinking. My opinion in that regard.
Too funny Silence doooo good. There is more than one anonymous. Targeting the 1st when the 2nd one posts.
Yeah. How utterly clever of you.
Well to Anonymous, there are a load of people who are upset about this project. I have had people write me snail mail letters, I have had people call me and speak lengthy, I have had people speak to me in person....
The people are prominent (as in movers and shakers in this community) and register in the dozens. And when you consider that there are only about 100 people who are in the know about what is happening in Hickory, then you understand that this is relevant.
So you can stay in your cocoon and think everything is sunshine and lollipops and we represent just a few flakes, but maybe you ought to get out here and find out what people are really thinking about this situation.
Anonymous "the original poster of One Dog that won't hunt" says....
Mr. Shell, yes I am sure there are alot of people that are unhappy with some decisions made by council in your community. You can't please 100% of the people, 100% of the time. That is what a pure democracy demands. It is an impossibility and can't be achieved.
My only opinion with regards to my initial post, was to maybe draw attention to the overwhelming divisiveness of the majority of the blogs and comments here from your supporters.
I haven't been the only anonymous commentor here, as Silent Dogood would like to believe. There must be others within the community as well that sense there is only a non-stop, "I object" mentality and when questions or answers to their beliefs are only responded with trying to belittle or name call, it shows the true strength of their argument as being invalid.
The City of Hickory has great potential and a bright future. The question is, do those of you here want it to hamper that succcess and progress or do you want to be a catalyst for the continued successes?
By providing a forum that spreads constant divisive comments against any and all issues that a few people believe they do not agreed with is only going to delay that process.
Opinion... It is my opinion, and we all know what they are worth.. is that a little more positive support and actual ideas to better the community from here moving forward would be a great start and I imagine a welcome change for those people that pour their hearts and souls into bettering your community.
Instead of showing up for the meetings every two weeks to find one decision to blast all over Hickory, request time to speak and present ideas for the future in front of those elected leaders. Work with, not constantly against. Does that mean never to object to any decisions made, absolutely not. We must have accountibility within government.
My comment of one dog that won't hunt, was not meant as disrespectful to you personally, but was adamantly directed at the Socialist Republic of Hickory title. If you truly wish to compare the manner in which Cuba and China are governed to that of Hickory, there would be little comparison I believe.
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